Re-thinking Greasus Goldtooth - A crazy 3,000 point list.

There are many reasons not to take Greasus Goldtooth in an Ogre Kingdoms army. As one of only 4 Lord choices (and a named character at that) the other 2 viable sub-3k choices seem much better on paper (Tyrant and Skrag).

I just can't find anything that is "good" about Greasus given the cost and options. Here is a quick run down of his special rules and my thoughts on each:

• Greasus counts as a BSB. Damn I would better well hope so for the cost and two slots! You could get a BSB for much cheaper that would be more effective in many ways.
  
  
• Greasus has US6. Well okay but two Bulls gives you that or two Leadbelchers. If you wanted a special char with a higher US Skrag does that and he brings magic to the table as well. If anything US6 is probably more of a detriment as he can be more easily targeted by shooting.
  
  
• Is carried around by a bunch of Gnoblars. Who cares!? It gives him M4 and 5 Sword Gnobs. It increases his Bull Charge to D6 but it says nothing about decreasing the range needed so you still have to have it least 6 inches on an 8 inch charge to make use of this benefit. The idea of an Ogre with M4 just makes me want to die inside.
  
  
• Greasus gives +1 CR to units he can see. Not terrible but Ogres don't win combats with static CR and if you are paying almost 600 points for a unit you most likely want it in CC. If you wanted the +1 CR you could just take a few banners.
  
  
• Greasus can give D3 units within LoS Stupidity. Probably the only somewhat decent ability he has but it still requires LoS. With a M4 his fellow Ogres will be moving 6 and most likely blocking his view. Also this ability doesn't work on ItP units (due to the gimped version of Stupidity it grants). Seems like it would be hard to use in any effective way.
  
  
• Must field two units of Ironguts with Greasus. This is on top of the required one Bull unit. Don't we have enough army restrictions without paying to add more?
  
  
• Greasus has a S10 D3 weapon which allows units to auto rally. Not bad but you have to get him into CC first for the S10 to matter and the auto rally is LoS only. He also only has 3 attacks on his profile which is 2 less than a normal Tyrant and no options for real survivability.
  
  
• Greasus has a Crown that gives him ItP and a 4+ Ward Save. Not terrible but ItP isn't that great on a Fear causing model to begin with as you really only need to worry about Panic checks and Terror causers. The 4+ Ward Save is only vs shooting. After that Greasus has to rely on his T6 to keep him safe throughout the game. One good cannonball from an Empire Great Cannon could kill him on turn 1. BOOM. There goes your two lord choices and almost 600 points.

It doesn't seem like I need to list anything else about the fat beast. For the points spent you could get more units that do most of the things he does only better. But who cares!? I feel bad writing off anything in the current OK book until I try it so with that in mind here is my "crazy" 3,000 point Greasus Goldtooth list. In addition to Greasus I also added things I would normally never use such as ranked Ironguts, Standards, Champions, and so on.

LORDS: (565)
Greasus Goldtooth (565)

HEROES: (566)
Bruiser – Heavy Armor, Brace of Handguns, Sword Gnoblar x 2, Tenderiser (206)
Butcher – Siegebreaker, Skull Mantle (180)
Butcher – Bangstick, Dispel Scroll (180)

CORE: (1,283)
Bulls x 4 – Champion, Bellower, Additional Hand Weapons (186)
Bulls x 4 – Champion, Bellower, Additional Hand Weapons (186)
Bulls x 4 – Champion, Bellower, Additional Hand Weapons (186)
Ironguts x 4 – Champion, Bellower (222)
Ironguts x 6 – Champion, Bellower, Standard, Rune Maw, Lookout Gnoblar (363)
Gnoblar Fighters x 20 (40)
Gnoblar Fighters x 20 (40)
Gnoblar Trappers x 10 (60)

SPECIAL: (260)
Leadbelchers x 2 – Champion, Bellower (130)
Leadbelchers x 2 – Champion, Bellower (130)

RARE: (325)
Slavegiant (175)
Gorger (75)
Gorger (75)

Total Points: 2,999 (of 3,000)

So what's the plan you ask? Hell if I know! I have never played a game past 2,250 so I assume this would be one giant mess. Greasus goes in the ranked up unit of Ironguts with the Rune Maw banner, Bruiser, and Siegebreaker Butcher. Gnoblar Fighters flank this unit, with Bulls on either side of that. Leadies and Slavegiant cover the flank while Gorgers hopefully take out any Warmachine threats. Champs have been added to help increase unit survivability by adding more randomization to the units being shot or magic'd.

Will it work? I have my doubts, but I would love to give this a try! What do you think?

Fun vs Competition - WTF is this s#!t?

A comment to Stelek's response to my Skrag ramblings in this post caught my eye and I wanted to respond in kind. (Stelek has since posted this comment as its own post here as well)

Endre Enyedy wrote:

As the one who originated the Skragg topic, I just have to chime in at this point. I've been reading the debate back and forth, and is great - helps me understand Skragg and the army all the better. But there's something that just doesn't sit well with me:

"I think for the most part we agree on things, especially trying to make a "competitive" list for Ogres. But I love my fatties (my first army and lucky for me I don't really give a crap about winning. If I want to win I just play my Vampire Counts. :D Besides where is the challenge or fun in playing one of the "broken"and "competitive" lists? Seems boring to me ..."

What? So let me get this straight, I spend hundreds of dollars and man hours putting together an army, so then I can get the real fun of losing all the time? How is that fun? Not only that, but look at the entire tone of the paragraph. I love my cutesy wootsie fatties, they're so silly and fun! They're the army I play when I just want to have a laugh!

In the words of Sarah Silverman: What the fuck is that shit?

I get it, GW has a sense of dark humor spread in its armies. But what am I, as a consumer, supposed to take out of this? I like Ogres because they're a pretty dark army, brutal monsters who will eat you as easily as help you, with a very dark, blood splattered imagery that's straight out of horror movies, tempered by the amusing wickedness of the Gnoblars. The models can be amazing, they're full of detail thanks to their scale and beg for rust, blood, and other weathering effects to make them realistic and grungy. For god's sakes, we're discussing a crazed giant carrying around a cauldron full of corpses and offal, who cut off his own hands and attached knives to the stumps!

I hate that people justify the fact that the army book is crap by making it seem like it's ok, as if GW purposedly created them to have floppy shoes, a red nose, and go around making people go "yuk yuk". Like somehow there's something noble about not playing the game for real, but rather you're there to be the class clown and make people crack up when they play you.

Well, I'm sorry, I'm not a teenager any more, I don't get fulfillment out of that. I don't want to show up to a tournament and say "Hey guys, look at me, woooo". I don't want to play a campaign where I'm basically free land for my neighbors. My game store charges for use of their tables. Why would I pay for my opponent to dance on my army?

I want to think my army is cool. I want to look at my models, read the fluff, then turn around on the battlefield and enjoy what I'm doing. I don't want to find the "fun" in getting reamed. I want to feel like a have a chance, I want to know that if I fail it's because *I* failed as a general, not because I showed up to the knife fight with a bag of cotton swabs.

I'm sorry Randall, I don't mean to attack you, I'm just venting my frustration at this bullshit "losing is its own kind of winning if you make them laugh!" attitude I see all over forums when it comes to Ogres.

I play 40k Necrons, which are just as much ass right now, but you know what? Nobody ever denigrates the army the way people denigrate Ogres...and it's usually the Ogre players while defending it! Orks and Orcs, they have a lot of silliness and humor, but in the end people respect them as armies, people find the models really cool, and people take them seriously. Nobody says "I want to play Orcs because they're so silly, ha! I want to have fun!"

Look at Stelek on his Goblins: "I enjoy my goblin army very much. They are much maligned but I've done well with them." He doesn't say "I enjoy my goblin army very much. I lose all the time, but damn it's funny when all my stone throwers misfire! I never win, but damn if it isn't satisfying to roll all those animosity dice!"

So yeah. Just had to get that out there. I like the tactical discussions and the back and forth, I like the ideas to make them work. Just don't undermine any serious tactical discussion stating that they're for "fun", and if you want to actually win a game you play another army. Because that's just a kick in the nuts to those of us without that other army.

First - thanks for commenting Endre I appreciate it.

Second - my comment that you took offense with was made in jest, a bad joke. I haven't even finished my Vampire Counts army so there is no way I could "win" with them!

My apologies if my off-the-cuff comment upset you (they certainly seem to have struck a nerve) but the fact of the matter is I play WHFB for fun (shit I hope we all do). I don't think of the Ogre Kingdoms army as a "just for fun" or "laughs and yucks" type list, but at the same time I don't consider myself to be a "competitive" gamer - it simply isn't my focus. I haven't been playing long enough to consider myself "good" and honestly I dislike the majority of the tournament scene and most of the people involved (Stelek does a good job of outlining those issues on his blog so I won't go into it here).

I chose Ogre Kingdoms as my first Fantasy army for almost all the reasons you state in your comment. The giant flesh eating monsters, covered in blood, living in caves, fighting and drinking their short lives away. That was the army I wanted to collect, model, paint, and play on the tabletop. I knew going into it that the army wasn't considered "top tier" or "competitive" among most WHFB vets but I never worried about that. You win some you lose some right?

Shortly after playing my first few matches I grew discouraged. The army I had set out to collect and play was not living up to my expectations on the tabletop. I was frustrated but never considered dropping the army, by that time I had grown to love the look of the models even more.

Over time, with plenty of practice and patience, I have learned how to play my OK force. One of the biggest helps for me was connecting with other Ogre players at the Ogre Stronghold - a must view for any serious Ogre general. I've been reading and posting on the Stronghold forum every day since I found it and even now I still learn a thing or two about playing Ogres.

Am I happy about the situation that GW has put the army in? Hell no. But what can be done about it at the moment? With next to nothing in way of fan-support or outreach how is a frustrated customer to get their view into the "right" hands? All I can hope is GW is planning on releasing an updated book that fixes the major problems they created with the OK list when it was released. Removing all of the seemingly arbitrary restrictions would be a great start (I dare you to find another army book with more restrictions).

I don't expect massive change though. Looking at the Chaos Ogres in the new WoC book gives me an idea of what to expect and it is nothing to write home about. Sadly, I could still make a better Ogre army list out of the WoC book if I wanted to.

So I do what I can; I keep playing my Ogres, constantly trying out new combinations and army lists, hoping to find something that "works" in the competitive scene. I try and keep track of my wins and losses, what did I do right and what could I have done better?

If I had it to do over would I still start my Ogre Kingdoms army? Absolutely. I love my fatties, they are a blast to play with (even when they are frustrating the hell out of me) and I don't think I would be half the Fantasy general I am now without the experience of playing with a "low tier" army.

So in closing - Endre I understand where you are coming from. It is frustrating and I don't really have great advice for dealing with the whole situation aside from "try not to take it so seriously". Join the ranks of Ogre generals trying to find a way to "make it work" and banging their heads against the OK Army Book. Talk tactics, what works and what doesn't. Experiment and play the "stupid" or "worthless" things - nothing is off limits.

I'll be here doing the same thing and hopefully winning a game or two in the process.

Thanks,

Randroid

Yes The Truth Hurts Skrag the Slaughterer - Part 3.

The Skrag saga continues with this latest post from Stelek on YTTH. I have added the relevant sections from my last message into the body of Stelek's reply (hard to see what he is responding to otherwise). I have also included my response to his comment in the body of this post. We'll see how this works out...

Stelek wrote:

Thanks for the reply. Sorry the comment system fails ya. =/

I don't use the Trappers to literally screen Skrag (wouldn't do much good against Warmachines and shooters on hills) but I do use them in forests or other terrain that I want to use to screen him. That way they can march block or otherwise harrass the fast movers and hard hitters my opponent points his way.

Don't underestimate a Gnoblar! The trappers have never failed to make their points back for me and they have many uses (skirmish screen, march blocking, sharp stuffing large targets or lone characters, shooting bait, frenzy bait, hatred bait, etc). As long as you don't depend on them to do something they will usually surprise you - just never count on a Gnoblar!

1) Well maybe you have great success with 1 unit of unarmored gits, but I don't. People figure out to kill them or ignore them as their army needs.

As I said, if people are spending any points or turn phases on killing my Gnoblars I am all for it. The only thing I worry about with them is Flyers and Terror causers. I don't expect them to live, I expect them to re-direct charges into difficult terrain, march block, shoot stuff, bicker, and die. Sometimes I use them only for a turn 2 march block and then hold a table quarter - or maybe follow a big block and pelt it with Sharp Stuff until someone is forced to deal with the green bastards.

Your general attitude towards the Gnoblars is exactly what makes them so great. People disrespect them or write them off all together and that is when they are at their most dangerous. It is the law of averages, I am bound to roll 5's and 6's and you are bound to roll a 1. When combined you lose models (hopefully expensive ones) and I laugh. This isn't some bs mathhammer or wish on a star type situation, I am speaking from personal experience with Trappers. Point for point they are the best unit in the Ogre Kingdoms army book and I try and always take at least one unit in every list I write.

Ah, I see what you meant. I don't usually put him in a unit so I can use his higher US to my advantage by breaking ranks on a flank or rear charge.

2) He still gets singled out was kinda my point. Running him on his
own or in a unit, I can still pick him out. Have to come out from
behind the woods (and not charge) for 1 turn. That's usually all it
takes to down him.

The same could be said for almost any Ogre Character so I don't see this as being particularly relevant to Skrag.

I'm not going to disagree with you here because you are mostly right. The Ogre magic phase is all about the bluff - casting order is essential. You can throw one dice at all the Gut Magic spells in the game until they are successfully cast or fail (or you run out of dice). If I cast a spell with one dice and you dispel it, guess what I am casting it again on one dice. It is only when the spell is successfully cast (i.e. not dispelled or scrolled) that the casting cost goes up for the next Butcher.

Look, I am not saying that any Ogre list can compete with a heavy magic list but if you want to run Gut Magic and have it be in any way successful then Skrag is the way to go.

3) I realize how the OK magic works. It's woefully underpowered and always has been. Wasn't well thought out TBH. I can usually get some gut magic off with my OK list with just 2 butchers. Often as not, it's all about rolling a 3 and the other guy rolling a 2...which is a sad place to be for any magic user.

There are certainly flaws to be found in Gut Magic but to say it is "woefully underpowered" is a bit extreme. Underpowered compared to what - High Magic? Dark Magic? Chaos Magic? Gut Magic seems more in line with O&G magic and even that has its moments. Anyway, the point of my comment wasn't to talk about how Gut Magic fails but to praise Skrag for what he brings to the OK Magic Phase. Again - if you are planning on going "heavy" with Gut Magic you can't go wrong with Skrag and 2 or 3 Butchers. Short of taking a DoW caster it is the best you can get as an Ogre general. It seems a Gut Magic tactica would be worthwhile for new OK players though, perhaps I will write one sometime soon.

Bait and flee is the standard Ogre way of dealing with fast units - often using Leadbelchers for this very tactic. Personally I don't like them as I tend to do more damage to myself then my target. I don't like Gorgers that much either but they get much better when you can take more than 2 in a list. If you are shooting at 75 points with your guns or warmachine that is just another turn I can spend getting the charge on your units or setting up a flank charge.

4) Gorgers don't deny flanks or give you a flank bonus, so I ignore them and let them get on my flank and rear. Adds to the combat resolution for my side when I put wounds on your gorger. All they have going for them is T5. While 'scary' against say a block of Empire troops--I don't think that's a good example of why gorgers are good since empire troops are so shitty. Try it against Demons, CW, or Elves (either one). You'll get punched in the balls real quick.

Not in the balls!!

Who said anything about flank charging with my Gorger? "Setting up a flank charge" here was in reference to Ogre units. I do sometimes charge my Gorgers into crappy troop blocks who can't hurt them (mmm Marauders taste like chicken). Pretty much a guaranteed 2 turn tar pit against most troops with the exception of truly elite forces. Again, it is about slowing down the enemy advance, re-redirecting, and misdirection. The kill is a secondary benefit (although Killing Blow always helps scare away the lone characters mucking about), the versatility and tactics options Gorgers allow is what makes them a decent choice.

Agreed - Skrag does not charge Knights unless they have been baited for him to be in a position to. And to say Knights don't give a crap about Maneaters is a little ridiculous. Decent WS, high T and S, 4-5 attacks each with Stubborn and ItP?! Of course a Knight wants to avoid that (or at least get the charge). Throw in a Bruiser with BSB or other magic weapon and you have one nasty combat block. I've obliterated many units of Chaos Knights, Blood Knights, Black Knights, etc ... with ME.

5) If you are charging knights with maneaters, then sure you might win. Didn't you already win the game though, because you ARE charging slow ass shit into fast shit? Knights should always charge you in power checkers. Failure to do so when Ogres cannot stop it in any way, well...that's your opponents failing at the basics imo.

Right. Well I don't want to fall back on the "your opponent sucks" argument so let's talk real strategy here. Everything (aside from Gnoblars and Yhetees) in the Ogre army has M6. That puts Ogres at a disadvantage to every army who has access to Cav. Do you expect Ogres to always get charged by these units with higher Movement? How do you deal with them? In your 2,250 list you have many units of Leadbelchers. I assume you use these to deal with Cav based on your previous comments regarding Skrag/my list.

The way I deal with Cav is bait. Put units out there, make a tasty target, flee with units they aren't expecting and get the counter-charge (hopefully with Flank support). Sometimes I do rely on bad charge declarations - it is an annoying little dance in the middle of the board as one side waits for the other to make a mistake and get charged. This is the only way I know how to win with Ogres. If you have some other ideas to share I would love to hear them!

Large blast template with Killing Blow doesn't scare you? The must charge (I call it "crappy frenzy") issue is a problem yes, but the Scraplauncher can hold it's own in most combats (assuming there isn't a S7 attack in the mix). Flyers and Fast Cav can give it a hard time but there is nothing like killing an entire unit of Empire troops or Warriors of Chaos with a Scraplauncher. Good times ...

6) Nope, not really. Gotta hit me first, assuming I don't park a skirmishing unit in your LOS and in charge range of you (14") and make you unable to fire. Yeah, I don't do that all the time. ;)

Fair enough. It is a decent tactic, I use it all the time with the Trappers you seem to think are a waste. Very unlikely a unit of Skirmishers are going to hold up to the charge of the Rhinox. If they flee I migth have more problems but I might also just catch them and eliminate the threat.

The only real worry for me and my Scraplauncher is S7 warmachines or spells. If I only get one or two shots with it that's fine. My guesses are usually spot on (if only my scatter die would stop coming up 8 and 10) and it only takes one to get the job done. I don't expect you change your tune until you see one or two Scraplaunchers in action - I know I didn't!

Trappers Scout and start in cover (typically a forest). They don't get shot on Turn 1 but they might pop out and blast a unit of Fast Cav to death with 16 shots.

7) Except against the competitive armies, you DO get shot--by magic. There is lots of magic that requires no line of sight, and virtually all armies bring it. I don't hold much weight in trappers firing on fast cav (move and multiple shot? assuming I'm dumb enough to be in range of your unit--which is another basics failure btw) and killing them.

Okay, we seem to be talking in circles now. So you don't care about my Trappers but you are going to waste an AoE spell on them? Okay, great! See my first point about Trappers (and Gnoblars in general) - I don't care if you are shooting them with guns, bows, magic, dinosaurs, whatever. If they are being shot instead of my 35+ points each Ogres they are doing their job!

Same with your movement. If you are changing your deployment or move to avoid my Trappers, well to steal a line from you "another basics failure btw". Trappers have Multiple Thrown Weapons meaning they can move and shoot without penalty (for 9-10 shots needing 4's) or multi-shot (for 18-20 shots needing 5's). Both wound on 5's and 6's mostly. Again, until you have seen a unit of Trappers wipe out a unit of Fast Cav or take off a Knight or two you can't appreciate what I am saying. It happens. I do it almost every game I play with Ogres.

I think for the most part we agree on things, especially trying to make a "competitive" list for Ogres. But I love my fatties (my first army and lucky for me I don't really give a crap about winning. If I want to win I just play my Vampire Counts. :D

Besides where is the challenge or fun in playing one of the "broken" and "competitive" lists? Seems boring to me...

I don't know about not being fun, for many players Fantasy isn't 'fun' period. I enjoy my goblin army very much. They are much maligned but I've done well with them.

While my comment was made in jest, it looks like I stirred up the bee's nest on this - I will get back to this thought in my next post.

I have yet to win a game against Daemons with Ogres.

I have yet to lose a game against Vampire Counts or Elves but WoC are about 60/40 for me at the moment.

8) I've beaten Demons but tbh the majority of demon players locally suck at the game so it means nothing. No idea how you are beating good Elf lists, Ogres are totally outclassed. What, ya gonna charge them? lol Is that before or after you get fried by Teclis? Or a Supreme Sorceress? ;) WoC make me giggle but sadly they have the WS, S, and saves to beat ogre face. If they run them like Dwarfs, it's a serious bitch for OK. I'll try to incorporate more Fantasy. A lot of the readers don't seem to like it lol.

Ogres are outclassed against most armies though, doesn't mean you can't beat them with enough practice and patience! To be fair I have only played 4 or maybe 5 HE players. They gave me a hard time, no doubt about that, but most anything T3 makes me happy in CC. Daemons are another story altogether...

I think you need more Fantasy tactics on your site. Take a break from all the 40k list bashing to explore the wonderful (and broken) world of Fantasy lists! And since when have you tried to do things that your readers liked?! Heheh...

Note: Since Stelek's initial post there have been a few additional comments made that I will respond to in my next post. To be continued...