Sprue pics: Warriors of Chaos - Chaos Knights.

When I first started collecting and building my Ogre army there was one thing I really wanted to find but couldn't - pictures of the OK sprues! It was very difficult to get any useful information from the web, and it made it much harder to plan out my various conversion and collecting plans.

I currently have a large pile of unassembled models sitting around collecting dust (until I can get to them) and I thought, why not put up some pictures of these sprues to help other WHFB collectors and painters?

So here is the first entry in what I hope becomes a "regular" addition to the blog; back and front pictures of the Warriors of Chaos - Chaos Knight sprues. I hope this helps someone out there, and I hope I am not angering the GW gods by posting these to the web! The photos aren't the greatest (sorry, I was in a bit of a rush to take these) but you can click on them for a larger version with more visible details.

Sprue #1 - Back

Sprue #1 - Front

Sprue #2 - Back

Sprue #2 - Front

Sprue #3 - Back

Sprue #3 - Front

If you have pictures of new sprues feel free to send them to me and I will get them added to the site! Thanks.

Ogre Kingdoms "Gut Magic" Cards.

Came across these somewhere on the web but I can't recall where. My thanks to the creator of these Gut Magic cards themed after Magic the Gathering - they look nice and can really come in handy! Perhaps one day I will get around to printing these out and laminating them for use on the tabletop. For now here they are for my fellow Ogre Kingdom players - enjoy!

BoLSCon Wrap-up.

Well I made it out alive! The first annual Bell of Lost Souls Con for me by the numbers: 2 days - 7 games - 2 wins - 5 losses - several beers. Overall it was a really fun and memorable event and I am already looking forward to next year when I will hopefully be able to take a slightly more "competitive" army (if I ever finish these damn Vampires).

I did not find the time to create any extensively thorough battle reports (honestly I can't say I want to remember most of my games with a few exceptions). Here is a quick run down of the games I played last Saturday and Sunday during the tournament:

Saturday

Saturday - Game 1 (vs Patrick's WoC)

• This WoC list was led by Valkia with a force of Maruders, two units of Chaos Knights, Exalted Hero on Juggernaut, Hellcannon, and a level one Nurgle scroll caddy.
  
  
• Turn 1 the Scraplauncher scored a direct hit on the unit of Marauders with Valkyia directly in the center. She failed here Look Out Sir roll and I rolled a 6. BAM. Valkia is dead.
  
  
• Tyrant charges out of the Bullstar unit to run down a pack of Chaos Warhounds, then pursues into a unit of Marauder Horsemen who flee off the table.
  
  
• Bruiser BSB goes on to smash an the Exalted Hero in a challenge and run down the unit of Khorne marked Knights who were baited into a nearby woods by Trappers.
  
  
• Bruiser BSB continues his smashing streak by crushing a Hellcannon that has pursued a fleeing unit of Ironguts.
  
  
• Game ends on Turn 5 - a Massacre for the Beer Gut Tribe with only one unit of Marauders left on the table.
  
  
• Great game, Patrick was a really fun opponent and dealt well with the terribly lucky (for me) Scraplauncher kill of his Lord on Turn 1.
  

Saturday - Game 2 (vs Mike's HE)

• This HE list was led by Teclis in a block of Spearmen, flanked by two units of Dragon Princes, a unit of Archers, two chariots, Great Eagle, two level 2 casters, mounted HE character with super bow, and three Repeating Bolt Throwers.
  
  
• Scraplauncher was the MVP of this game as well - raining pointy death on the HE pointy ears.
  
  
• Leadbelchers obliterated one chariot in a stand and shoot, then holding their ground and smashing the other remaining chariot on a charge.
  
  
• Characters and Bullstar stalled out behind a hill in an attempt at avoiding the massive amounts of shooting and magic coming out of the enemy. Never actually left the deployment zone and did nothing all game.
  
  
• Slavegiant almost Terror checked Teclis off the board after he left his unit to attack him with magic. Tecilis rolled a 10 and stayed put only to Pit of Shades my poor Slavegiant off the board.
  
  
• Scraplauncher took 4 wounds from Bolt Throwers but managed to survive until the end of the game, slowly taking it's toll on the HE units but failing to do enough (damn high scatter rolls!).
  
  
• This game was a little frustrating (as Mike's list was meant to handle Daemons, VC, WoC, DE, etc.. not Ogres) but it was awesome to jump to table 2 before having my ass beat. I expected something like this to happen so I still had a fun game overall.
  

Saturday - Game 3 (vs Zach's WoC)

• This WoC list did not have a named character (it used to have Sigvald until Zach realized how crappy he was), but it still had plenty of magic and WoC scary stuff. Big block of Knights with Sorc Lord, Exalted Hero, and level 2 Tz caster inside. Another level 2 was flying around on a disc. The rest of his army was Marauders, more Knights, Chaos Warhounds, and a Warshrine.
  
  
• Game started off good for me with some excellent deployment and first turn moves. Managed to charge the Tyrant out of his unit to smash through some Horsemen and overrun into some Marauders.
  
  
• Shortly after that Zach rolled 12 on the Eye of the Gods table making his big block of Knights practically unkillable - with a 1+ armor save and 3+ ward save.
  
  
• The rest of the game was a series of really bad movement phases on my part, allowing the WoC forces flank charges on all of my units.
  
  
• Bullstar was run down and killed and the rest of my units fell shortly after that.
  
  
• This is the worst game of WHFB I have played in my life. I don't know what happened to me but I vow to never play that poorly again. The game went from a win/draw to a horrible loss in the space of one movement phase due to some really bad choices (not thinking).
  

Saturday - Game 4 (vs Will's VC)

• This VC list is the one you don't want to play. Mounted Vamp Lord with Frostblade, Red Fury, Infinite Hatred, Beguile, etc, in a big unit of Dire Wolves with two other killy Infinite Hatred Vamps, and a Wight King with the Dickenhoff regen banner. The rest of the army was comprised of three minimum units of Zombies, a block of 6 Blood Knights with Hatred banner, and a huge unit of Wraiths (6) with Banshee.
  
  
• This game was the splitting point between the championship and consolation brackets for the second day of the event.
  
  
• Horrible game - my army was wiped off the board by the end of Turn 3.

For those keeping score at home that put my record at 1 win and 3 losses for the first day. I score a total of 24 points on day one and left the event really frustrated and unhappy. Was day two better?

Sunday

Sunday - Game 1 (vs David's HE)

• This HE list did not feature Teclis but it did have a Star Dragon with "unkillable" Lord on top. The rest of the list was standard 2,250 fare with three Repeating Bolt Throwers, a unit of Archers, two units of Dragon Princes, Lion Chariot, Great Eagle, and a unit of Swordmasters.
  
  
• Scraplauncher landed several direct hits on HE units only to scatter 8 to 10" away each time.
  
  
• Tyrant charged out of the Bullstar to crush a unit of Dragon Princes, followed by a unit of Swordmasters, and did not take any wounds.
  
  
• Star Dragon attacked the flank but was flank charged itself by a march blocked Slavegiant. Slavegiant took one wound from the Lord before Headbutting the Dragon and tying combat.
  
  
• This allowed a unit of Ironguts to charge in, whiff all their attacks, pass their Break Test after losing one Ogre, and stand in place for a flank charge from nearby Dragon Princes.
  
• Slavegiant is killed, unit is wiped out, and the nearby Scraplauncher passes it's Ld test and stands.
  
  
• Scraplauncher charges the Star Dragon and whiffs all of its attacks before taking one S7 wound and exploding.
  
  
• Meanwhile the Bullstar rampages across the board and panics off the unit of Archers and a Bolt Thrower crew but takes heavy losses as flank shots from the other remaining Bolt Throwers take their toll.
  
  
• Game ends with the Bullstar dead by Dragon charge and the Tyrant hiding in a woods.
  
  
• Fun game even though it was my second hard fought game against High Elves.
  

Sunday - Game 2 (vs Mike's HE)

• Hey look it's Teclis again! (same list as before)
  
  
• Mike went "easy" on me, selecting lores he would not normally use like Death and Heavens.
  
  
• His goal this second time around was to destroy the Scraplauncher.
  
  
• Bullstar ran up the farthest flank only to be march blocked by a Great Eagle for 3 turns before a unit of nearby Leadbelchers were able to blast it off the board.
  
  
• Tyrant ran out to destroy two Repeating Bolt Throwers before being magic'd and shot to death by characters with just as much movement and 360 line of sight (stupid single model rules that Ogres don't get).
  
  
• Scraplauncher misfired on Turn 5 allowing Mike to roll a shot of his own. He rolled another misfire and then a 1 - removing the Scraplauncher from play.
  
  
• A fun but futile game that resulted in yet another loss for the Beer Gut Tribe.
  

Sunday - Game 3 (vs Sam's WoC)

• WoC force led by ARCHAON in a big unit of Knights surrounded by Throgg and Trolls. Also had Wulfrik in a large unit of Marauders coming off the board, and a level 2 Tz Sorcerer on disc.
  
  
• We decided to play "beat face" in the center of the board and left all the terrain on the far table edges.
  
  
• Archaon charged the Bullstar and challenged - Karnov (my Tyrant) accepted.
  
  
• Greedy Fist proceeds to eat after failing two ward saves. Karnov punches Arcahon in the face and knocks a wizard level out of his head. Bruiser BSB smashes three knights and the combat is a draw.
  
  
• Next turn my Ironguts charge the flank while Leadbelchers blast off the Trolls (who fail to make any mutant regen saves). Karnov survives his challenge again taking no wounds and dealing another two.
  
  
• Archaon lose combat and flees 11" with his unit of Knights.
  
  
• Bullstar and Karnov pursue 12" when I roll box cars.
  
  
• Game ends as a victory for the Beer Gut Tribe on Turn 2.
  

All in all it was a great event and I am glad I attended. It would have been nice to not play the same player twice, but the general lack of Fantasy players made this almost unavoidable. I blame you (the reader) for not coming out and playing some WHFB! Perhaps next year will be a better turn-out.

Until then I have a ton of Skeletons and other Undead nasties waiting for paint. Back to the painting table...

The big black mystery box.

What's in the box?

The Beer Gut Tribe is in the box!

All packed up and ready to head out to BoLSCon tomorrow morning. Manged to get everything painted (not super but painted), based, and magnetized to movement trays. Looking forward to some fun games and a beer or two.

If you are reading this, are in Austin (or nearby), and are not planning on going to this tournament with your painted army... why!? I saw the massive mountain of prizes and have to say if I head home empty handed it will be a shock. It was like Christmas!

New Skaven - Clanrat pic from Gamesday Germany.

From this thread on Warseer - an image posted by Avian of brand new Clanrats from the new issue of White Dwarf. I like the new look, they appear less "cartoony" and more feral/animal. The Skaven sported a similar look in the Warhammer: Age of Reckoning MMO so this appears to be the new official direction of the Skaven model range.

Can't wait to see more concrete information on the impending Skaven onslaught for this fall! *chitter chitter*

BoLSCon or BUST - 2,250pts of Ogres!

Surprise! Last minute convention attendance ho! I've decided to make my way out to BoLSCon this Saturday and Sunday here in Austin. I put together a somewhat competitive list based on the models I have the most paint on. I would have liked to take Skrag but I haven't even finished applying a base coat to the fat monster and I don't have the time to get him and the rest of the list fully painted by Saturday.

With this self-imposed "painted or mostly painted models only" restriction in place here is the list I will be taking with me.

LORDS: (316)
Tyrant – Heavy Armor, Luck Gnoblar, Sword Gnoblar x 2, Longstrider, Wyrdstone Necklace, Greedy Fist, Siegebreaker (316)

Longstrider is there to worry the Fast Cav and Knights that will threaten to harry my big block of Bulls, while Siegebreaker allows me to smash Steam Tanks and gets my Tyrant to the dreaded S7 chariot smashing territory. Greedy Fist is just too much fun - nothing like eating your opponent's high cost magic weapon or punching a wizard leevl or two out of an unlucky caster.

HEROES: (574)
Bruiser – BSB, Lookout Gnoblar, Heavy Armor, The Tenderiser (214)
Butcher – Gnoblar Thiefstone x 2, Skullmantle (180)
Butcher – Bangstick, Dispel Scroll (180)

Bruiser BSB and Thiefstone Butcher go in with the Bulls. I hate running the Bruiser with so little protection but hopefully his unit will have Trollguts or Toothcracker on it for some added protection.

The Bangstick Butcher will run behind the main block or the flanking Ironguts; popping out to blast away at choice Bangstick targets (mmm Fast Cav and Skirmishers). Debated dropping the Bangstick for a second scroll but hopefully the Thiefstone's MR2 will keep the main block safe from most magic leaving me 4 DD to counter other threats.

CORE: (779)
Bulls x 7 – Bellower, Champion (275)
Ironguts x 4 – Bellower, Champion (222)
Ironguts x 4 – Bellower, Champion (222)
Gnoblar Trappers x 10 (60)

Champions allow for randomization of hits for the magic and shooting attacks that will be flying my way. Hopefully all 4 Ironguts can make it into Close Combat as that is 13 S6 attacks - nothing to sneeze at even with a crappy WS of 3.

SPECIAL: (405)
Scraplauncher (165)
Leadbelchers x 2 – Champion (120)
Leadbelchers x 2 – Champion (120)

Same again here; Champs allow for randomization which is great as people just love to shoot at Leadbelchers! Assuming them survive they will be used on the Flanks - great and busting rank bonuses with their smaller frontage.

RARE: (175)
Slavegiant (175)

The big pincusion himself. 175 points of "Shoot me! Shoot me!" and if he makes it into combat against smaller things he is usually good for a laugh. I love the model, although this is one that still needs a lot of paint to be up to snuff for this weekend.

Total Points: 2,249 (of 2,250)

And there you have it - my BoLSCon list for better or worse. This list hasn't been approved as of yet but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be. I don't expect to win it all but I do expect to have some fun, get some pictures, and maybe win a prize or two. Comments, questions, and suggestions on the list are welcome and encouraged!

Chaos Marauders - new card game release from Fantasy Flight Games.

Lately I feel like my blog has turned into a damn advertising site. Hopefully this will be the last "look at this!" post for awhile - if FFG ever stops releasing nerdy Warhammer related stuff... still, have you seen this?

Chaos Marauders is a cool looking new Card game for 2 to 4 player from Fantasy Flight Games. Here is the "pitch" from the site:

"A vast Chaos army is marching north, when suddenly the sprawling mass of bored and surly Orcs grinds to a halt because of yet another petty feud. In Chaos Marauders, each player takes control of one of the Orc clans involved, ready to show all the other mangy little creeps who’s boss of dis ‘ere scabby battle mob. You’ll stop at nothing to win. No amount of trickery will be low enough, no amount of thugish brutality too vile. Who knows, you may even get the mysterious Chaos Marauders on your side. Only one tribe can come out on top – will it be yours?"

But how does it play? Good question! I have no idea, but this description has piqued my interest! This is apparently a reissue of an older game originally published in 1987. With the low, low, price of $24.95 I expect to pick it up once it is released later this year.

If you have played the older edition, or have any other info on this game, leave a comment and let me know about it!

New Slayerbrotherhood - The Doom Seeker Issue #1 out now.

Hot on the heels of Gold and Glory we have the first issue of The Doom Seeker - a new Storm of Chaos/Slayer-centric WHFB webzine from some of the same team.

Overall this issue follows many of the thematic lines set out by the new issue of Gold and Glory, including the least attractive elements like liberal use of clip art and a variety of fonts. I don't consider myself to be a master of design but someone needs to step up as "Art Director" to help guide the layout and style of these webzines. While there is likely some great information in this work I find it hard to make myself read something that is presented in such a bland and uninspired style.

The issue's contents include various pictures (of varying quality), fluff/history articles, a woefully under thought out Slayer army list (did anyone play test this!?), some tutorials that don't teach much, and a random assortment of seemingly unrelated how-to and showcase pieces.

I really want to like this webzine, and I applaud the (small) community for their efforts, but the presentation really must improve if they want anyone to take a Slayer army seriously. As a Slayer fan myself it hurts to see the low quality of something like this as I feel it portrays the army and it's fans in a less than stellar light. Perhaps I should "put my money where my mouth is" and step in to help out somehow, or at least offer more specific critique and ways for the staff to improve.

Here's hoping the next issue blows the orange dye out of my hair and the piercings from my face.

It has been awhile since I posted a beer review (it always seems to be that way!) and I am getting behind on that end of the hobby (about 6-10 reviews waiting to be added to the site right now, not including my own homebrew). To rectify that situation, and to celebrate the might Slayer lifestyle, here is a review of one of the brews I had back in January from Fort Collins, CO.

Odell Brewing Company - Odell Isolation Ale

Beer Type: Winter Warmer

Appearance: 12 oz. brown bottle featuring a very wintery Odell style label. Beer poured a burnt orange-amber color with a thick off white head that faded quickly but left a nice lacing.

Smell: Lots of sweet caramel malt with a hint of hops.

First Drink: Big caramel malt flavor up front (like the smell) that is followed up by a mellow bitter hops and some more earthy flavors.

Mouthfeel: Great done mix of carbonation and full mouthfeel. You can feel it warming up your insides as it goes down.

Last Drink: A bit of smokey aftertaste, with maybe a little piny hops in the finish.

Drinkability: Well crafted and executed, I didn't like this beer much when I first tried it but I am appreciating it in a new way for this review.

Notes: Odell's brewery is in Fort Collins, Colorado and I brought this back with me on my trip. A really cool brewery and I hope I get the chance to go back at some point to try more of their excellent beer.

Verdict: 4.25 out of 5. Even though it is about 85 degrees outside right now, I really enjoyed this wintery brew!

Links: Beer Advocate and Odell Brewing Company.

1,500 point Dwarf "Slayer" list.

Shortly after I started collecting my Ogre Kingdoms army I went a little bit insane (I am not ashamed to admit that). I decided it would be an awesome idea to collect a Slayer army of Karak Kadrin from the Storm of Chaos. In 2008. When nobody still played with the list.

Seeing as I am the proud (and crazed) owner of about 1,500 points in pewter Dwarf Slayer models, and inspired by the discovery of the New Slayerbrotherhood, I thought now might be a good time to craft a "Slayer" army based on the Dwarf Army book. With a little imagination, and some help from my friend Thane Demolira, I have done just that! Here I present to you 1,500 points of Dwarf "Slayers".

SLAAAYYAAAAAAAS!

HEROES: (316)
Thane - Great Weapon, Shield, Rune of Stone (76)
Thane - BSB, Strollaz's Rune, RoCourage, RoSanctuary (190)
Dragon Slayer (50)

The first Thane is my "Slayer" army general. He has a "Slayer" save, its not armor... honest! The BSB is my close approximation and making the unit of Longbeards (and the surrounding units) act a bit more like Slayers. Strollaz's Rune of "Look Snorri, Trolls!", MR1, and immunity to Fear and Terror. The actual Dragon Slayer is there just so I can take the second unit of Slayers. Maybe he will live near the Warriors behind the Longbeards.

CORE: (380)
Warriors x 11 - Shields, Musician (104)
Longbeards x 18 - Shields, Musician, Standard, MroGrugni (276)

"Warriors" are there to allow for the "Longbeards". All of these will be represented by Slayer models. The Longbeards are filling in for the Brotherhood of Grimnir and I have tried to approximate their special rules with the Banners of the BSB and the unit.

SPECIAL: (585)
Troll Slayers x 20 - Giant Slayer (235)
Troll Slayers x 20 - Giant Slayer (235)
Miners x 10 - Musician (115)

Slayers! The real ones (plus a unit of Slayer "Miners" who will drunkenly stumble on the board at some point). These will flank the unit of Longbeards to benefit from Strollaz and Grugni.

RARE: (219)
Long Drong's Slayer Pirates x 12 (219)

I would rather take the Goblin Hewer but that requires an additional Hero slot. Perhaps at 2,000 points (or as a counts as "Organ Gun"). Slayer Pirates are fun though, especially when you deploy them in a straight line of 12!

Total Points: 1,500 (of 1,500)

So there you have it - my first attempt at making a "real" Dwarf list that utilizes my collection of Slayer models. As a Dwarf list it is certainly lacking in some areas but I think it may still do well given the right situation and opponents.

New edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay incoming!

Fantasy Flight Games has been on a Games Workshop related release spree as of late and I am really excited about it! Next up is a new edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, the WHFB RPG system (which appears to be slightly less exciting).

The new set is a bit pricey (current MSRP is $99.95) but the core set comes with everything you need to play the game - aside from some friends and time. The core set includes:

• 4 comprehensive rule books provide all the knowledge you will need on the Old World
• Over 30 Custom Dice give you unprecedented options for story-telling
• Party sheets provide new skills and abilities to keep everyone engaged
• 40 different careers and 4 different races offer a multitude of character options
• More than 300 cards keep you in the game, no need to look up skills or abilities
• Three character keepers designed to hold everything your hero will need each session

It looks like FFG took some cues from the latest edition of D&D and tried to simplify the rules look-up and disputes that eventually come up during any given gaming session. The game art I have seen far is also related to the Warhammer: Age of Reckoning MMO which makes me wonder if the game system uses some of the videogame's mechanics.

The Hogs of War have some pictures of the set from GenCon. Not sure I like all the little bit (cardboard stands?) and special dice. I'll certainly be keeping an eye on this system update, although I have some concerns about the changes that have been made. Never got a chance to play the last edition but this is shaping up to be a different experience entirely.

Painted mounted Vampire Count pictures.

Well I finished this guy a few weeks back but didn't post it here as I entered it into a recent painting competition on the Ogre Stronghold.

Without further ado - two crummy pics of my first painted Vampire!

Click to make em bigger!

Overall I am pretty happy with how this guy turned out. This was my first time painting any "real" armor so I had to learn a few new techniques on the fly. You can't see it well in my picture but there is more layering/shading on the cloth around the base of the mount and on the cape. I may go back and add some additional highlights before I seal the model but otherwise this one is done!

Re-thinking Greasus Goldtooth - A crazy 3,000 point list.

There are many reasons not to take Greasus Goldtooth in an Ogre Kingdoms army. As one of only 4 Lord choices (and a named character at that) the other 2 viable sub-3k choices seem much better on paper (Tyrant and Skrag).

I just can't find anything that is "good" about Greasus given the cost and options. Here is a quick run down of his special rules and my thoughts on each:

• Greasus counts as a BSB. Damn I would better well hope so for the cost and two slots! You could get a BSB for much cheaper that would be more effective in many ways.
  
  
• Greasus has US6. Well okay but two Bulls gives you that or two Leadbelchers. If you wanted a special char with a higher US Skrag does that and he brings magic to the table as well. If anything US6 is probably more of a detriment as he can be more easily targeted by shooting.
  
  
• Is carried around by a bunch of Gnoblars. Who cares!? It gives him M4 and 5 Sword Gnobs. It increases his Bull Charge to D6 but it says nothing about decreasing the range needed so you still have to have it least 6 inches on an 8 inch charge to make use of this benefit. The idea of an Ogre with M4 just makes me want to die inside.
  
  
• Greasus gives +1 CR to units he can see. Not terrible but Ogres don't win combats with static CR and if you are paying almost 600 points for a unit you most likely want it in CC. If you wanted the +1 CR you could just take a few banners.
  
  
• Greasus can give D3 units within LoS Stupidity. Probably the only somewhat decent ability he has but it still requires LoS. With a M4 his fellow Ogres will be moving 6 and most likely blocking his view. Also this ability doesn't work on ItP units (due to the gimped version of Stupidity it grants). Seems like it would be hard to use in any effective way.
  
  
• Must field two units of Ironguts with Greasus. This is on top of the required one Bull unit. Don't we have enough army restrictions without paying to add more?
  
  
• Greasus has a S10 D3 weapon which allows units to auto rally. Not bad but you have to get him into CC first for the S10 to matter and the auto rally is LoS only. He also only has 3 attacks on his profile which is 2 less than a normal Tyrant and no options for real survivability.
  
  
• Greasus has a Crown that gives him ItP and a 4+ Ward Save. Not terrible but ItP isn't that great on a Fear causing model to begin with as you really only need to worry about Panic checks and Terror causers. The 4+ Ward Save is only vs shooting. After that Greasus has to rely on his T6 to keep him safe throughout the game. One good cannonball from an Empire Great Cannon could kill him on turn 1. BOOM. There goes your two lord choices and almost 600 points.

It doesn't seem like I need to list anything else about the fat beast. For the points spent you could get more units that do most of the things he does only better. But who cares!? I feel bad writing off anything in the current OK book until I try it so with that in mind here is my "crazy" 3,000 point Greasus Goldtooth list. In addition to Greasus I also added things I would normally never use such as ranked Ironguts, Standards, Champions, and so on.

LORDS: (565)
Greasus Goldtooth (565)

HEROES: (566)
Bruiser – Heavy Armor, Brace of Handguns, Sword Gnoblar x 2, Tenderiser (206)
Butcher – Siegebreaker, Skull Mantle (180)
Butcher – Bangstick, Dispel Scroll (180)

CORE: (1,283)
Bulls x 4 – Champion, Bellower, Additional Hand Weapons (186)
Bulls x 4 – Champion, Bellower, Additional Hand Weapons (186)
Bulls x 4 – Champion, Bellower, Additional Hand Weapons (186)
Ironguts x 4 – Champion, Bellower (222)
Ironguts x 6 – Champion, Bellower, Standard, Rune Maw, Lookout Gnoblar (363)
Gnoblar Fighters x 20 (40)
Gnoblar Fighters x 20 (40)
Gnoblar Trappers x 10 (60)

SPECIAL: (260)
Leadbelchers x 2 – Champion, Bellower (130)
Leadbelchers x 2 – Champion, Bellower (130)

RARE: (325)
Slavegiant (175)
Gorger (75)
Gorger (75)

Total Points: 2,999 (of 3,000)

So what's the plan you ask? Hell if I know! I have never played a game past 2,250 so I assume this would be one giant mess. Greasus goes in the ranked up unit of Ironguts with the Rune Maw banner, Bruiser, and Siegebreaker Butcher. Gnoblar Fighters flank this unit, with Bulls on either side of that. Leadies and Slavegiant cover the flank while Gorgers hopefully take out any Warmachine threats. Champs have been added to help increase unit survivability by adding more randomization to the units being shot or magic'd.

Will it work? I have my doubts, but I would love to give this a try! What do you think?

Dogs of War - Gold and Glory Issue #2 out now.

Gold and Glory Issue #2 has just been released by the salty seadogs over at Dogs of War Online.

You can download it here.

The first thing I notice in this issue was an ad for The New Slayer Brotherhood. Neat. I really need to work on my Slayer army. I have been thinking about crafting a Dwarf Army Book list that I can use my Slayer models for and the New Slayer Brotherhood forum gave me a few ideas in that regard. I'm sure you can expect to see more on that later...

As for the rest of the issue's contents - well it certainly isn't as polished as the Chaos Dwarfs Online webzine Word of Hashut. The article that I took the most interest in was the Ogre Tactica, but I can't say I was overly impressed with the content of this article. Honestly it did not seem like the author really knew all that much about the Ogre Kingdoms. It was basically a run down of the army book with very little "meat" and some of the content was factually incorrect. I am disappointed.

Overall the issue has a "novice" look and feel, which is appropriate given that it is the first issue for this new editorial staff (the first issue was done by Willmark from CDO/WoH). Some good information, a few pictures and armies, a tactica or two, and one really long battle report. The rest is filler (mostly ads). Hopefully the look and quality of this zine can increase in the months to come, but I worry - are there enough DoW players and fans out there to keep something like this interesting for long? Only time will tell I suppose.

Fun vs Competition - WTF is this s#!t?

A comment to Stelek's response to my Skrag ramblings in this post caught my eye and I wanted to respond in kind. (Stelek has since posted this comment as its own post here as well)

Endre Enyedy wrote:

As the one who originated the Skragg topic, I just have to chime in at this point. I've been reading the debate back and forth, and is great - helps me understand Skragg and the army all the better. But there's something that just doesn't sit well with me:

"I think for the most part we agree on things, especially trying to make a "competitive" list for Ogres. But I love my fatties (my first army and lucky for me I don't really give a crap about winning. If I want to win I just play my Vampire Counts. :D Besides where is the challenge or fun in playing one of the "broken"and "competitive" lists? Seems boring to me ..."

What? So let me get this straight, I spend hundreds of dollars and man hours putting together an army, so then I can get the real fun of losing all the time? How is that fun? Not only that, but look at the entire tone of the paragraph. I love my cutesy wootsie fatties, they're so silly and fun! They're the army I play when I just want to have a laugh!

In the words of Sarah Silverman: What the fuck is that shit?

I get it, GW has a sense of dark humor spread in its armies. But what am I, as a consumer, supposed to take out of this? I like Ogres because they're a pretty dark army, brutal monsters who will eat you as easily as help you, with a very dark, blood splattered imagery that's straight out of horror movies, tempered by the amusing wickedness of the Gnoblars. The models can be amazing, they're full of detail thanks to their scale and beg for rust, blood, and other weathering effects to make them realistic and grungy. For god's sakes, we're discussing a crazed giant carrying around a cauldron full of corpses and offal, who cut off his own hands and attached knives to the stumps!

I hate that people justify the fact that the army book is crap by making it seem like it's ok, as if GW purposedly created them to have floppy shoes, a red nose, and go around making people go "yuk yuk". Like somehow there's something noble about not playing the game for real, but rather you're there to be the class clown and make people crack up when they play you.

Well, I'm sorry, I'm not a teenager any more, I don't get fulfillment out of that. I don't want to show up to a tournament and say "Hey guys, look at me, woooo". I don't want to play a campaign where I'm basically free land for my neighbors. My game store charges for use of their tables. Why would I pay for my opponent to dance on my army?

I want to think my army is cool. I want to look at my models, read the fluff, then turn around on the battlefield and enjoy what I'm doing. I don't want to find the "fun" in getting reamed. I want to feel like a have a chance, I want to know that if I fail it's because *I* failed as a general, not because I showed up to the knife fight with a bag of cotton swabs.

I'm sorry Randall, I don't mean to attack you, I'm just venting my frustration at this bullshit "losing is its own kind of winning if you make them laugh!" attitude I see all over forums when it comes to Ogres.

I play 40k Necrons, which are just as much ass right now, but you know what? Nobody ever denigrates the army the way people denigrate Ogres...and it's usually the Ogre players while defending it! Orks and Orcs, they have a lot of silliness and humor, but in the end people respect them as armies, people find the models really cool, and people take them seriously. Nobody says "I want to play Orcs because they're so silly, ha! I want to have fun!"

Look at Stelek on his Goblins: "I enjoy my goblin army very much. They are much maligned but I've done well with them." He doesn't say "I enjoy my goblin army very much. I lose all the time, but damn it's funny when all my stone throwers misfire! I never win, but damn if it isn't satisfying to roll all those animosity dice!"

So yeah. Just had to get that out there. I like the tactical discussions and the back and forth, I like the ideas to make them work. Just don't undermine any serious tactical discussion stating that they're for "fun", and if you want to actually win a game you play another army. Because that's just a kick in the nuts to those of us without that other army.

First - thanks for commenting Endre I appreciate it.

Second - my comment that you took offense with was made in jest, a bad joke. I haven't even finished my Vampire Counts army so there is no way I could "win" with them!

My apologies if my off-the-cuff comment upset you (they certainly seem to have struck a nerve) but the fact of the matter is I play WHFB for fun (shit I hope we all do). I don't think of the Ogre Kingdoms army as a "just for fun" or "laughs and yucks" type list, but at the same time I don't consider myself to be a "competitive" gamer - it simply isn't my focus. I haven't been playing long enough to consider myself "good" and honestly I dislike the majority of the tournament scene and most of the people involved (Stelek does a good job of outlining those issues on his blog so I won't go into it here).

I chose Ogre Kingdoms as my first Fantasy army for almost all the reasons you state in your comment. The giant flesh eating monsters, covered in blood, living in caves, fighting and drinking their short lives away. That was the army I wanted to collect, model, paint, and play on the tabletop. I knew going into it that the army wasn't considered "top tier" or "competitive" among most WHFB vets but I never worried about that. You win some you lose some right?

Shortly after playing my first few matches I grew discouraged. The army I had set out to collect and play was not living up to my expectations on the tabletop. I was frustrated but never considered dropping the army, by that time I had grown to love the look of the models even more.

Over time, with plenty of practice and patience, I have learned how to play my OK force. One of the biggest helps for me was connecting with other Ogre players at the Ogre Stronghold - a must view for any serious Ogre general. I've been reading and posting on the Stronghold forum every day since I found it and even now I still learn a thing or two about playing Ogres.

Am I happy about the situation that GW has put the army in? Hell no. But what can be done about it at the moment? With next to nothing in way of fan-support or outreach how is a frustrated customer to get their view into the "right" hands? All I can hope is GW is planning on releasing an updated book that fixes the major problems they created with the OK list when it was released. Removing all of the seemingly arbitrary restrictions would be a great start (I dare you to find another army book with more restrictions).

I don't expect massive change though. Looking at the Chaos Ogres in the new WoC book gives me an idea of what to expect and it is nothing to write home about. Sadly, I could still make a better Ogre army list out of the WoC book if I wanted to.

So I do what I can; I keep playing my Ogres, constantly trying out new combinations and army lists, hoping to find something that "works" in the competitive scene. I try and keep track of my wins and losses, what did I do right and what could I have done better?

If I had it to do over would I still start my Ogre Kingdoms army? Absolutely. I love my fatties, they are a blast to play with (even when they are frustrating the hell out of me) and I don't think I would be half the Fantasy general I am now without the experience of playing with a "low tier" army.

So in closing - Endre I understand where you are coming from. It is frustrating and I don't really have great advice for dealing with the whole situation aside from "try not to take it so seriously". Join the ranks of Ogre generals trying to find a way to "make it work" and banging their heads against the OK Army Book. Talk tactics, what works and what doesn't. Experiment and play the "stupid" or "worthless" things - nothing is off limits.

I'll be here doing the same thing and hopefully winning a game or two in the process.

Thanks,

Randroid

Yes The Truth Hurts Skrag the Slaughterer - Part 3.

The Skrag saga continues with this latest post from Stelek on YTTH. I have added the relevant sections from my last message into the body of Stelek's reply (hard to see what he is responding to otherwise). I have also included my response to his comment in the body of this post. We'll see how this works out...

Stelek wrote:

Thanks for the reply. Sorry the comment system fails ya. =/

I don't use the Trappers to literally screen Skrag (wouldn't do much good against Warmachines and shooters on hills) but I do use them in forests or other terrain that I want to use to screen him. That way they can march block or otherwise harrass the fast movers and hard hitters my opponent points his way.

Don't underestimate a Gnoblar! The trappers have never failed to make their points back for me and they have many uses (skirmish screen, march blocking, sharp stuffing large targets or lone characters, shooting bait, frenzy bait, hatred bait, etc). As long as you don't depend on them to do something they will usually surprise you - just never count on a Gnoblar!

1) Well maybe you have great success with 1 unit of unarmored gits, but I don't. People figure out to kill them or ignore them as their army needs.

As I said, if people are spending any points or turn phases on killing my Gnoblars I am all for it. The only thing I worry about with them is Flyers and Terror causers. I don't expect them to live, I expect them to re-direct charges into difficult terrain, march block, shoot stuff, bicker, and die. Sometimes I use them only for a turn 2 march block and then hold a table quarter - or maybe follow a big block and pelt it with Sharp Stuff until someone is forced to deal with the green bastards.

Your general attitude towards the Gnoblars is exactly what makes them so great. People disrespect them or write them off all together and that is when they are at their most dangerous. It is the law of averages, I am bound to roll 5's and 6's and you are bound to roll a 1. When combined you lose models (hopefully expensive ones) and I laugh. This isn't some bs mathhammer or wish on a star type situation, I am speaking from personal experience with Trappers. Point for point they are the best unit in the Ogre Kingdoms army book and I try and always take at least one unit in every list I write.

Ah, I see what you meant. I don't usually put him in a unit so I can use his higher US to my advantage by breaking ranks on a flank or rear charge.

2) He still gets singled out was kinda my point. Running him on his
own or in a unit, I can still pick him out. Have to come out from
behind the woods (and not charge) for 1 turn. That's usually all it
takes to down him.

The same could be said for almost any Ogre Character so I don't see this as being particularly relevant to Skrag.

I'm not going to disagree with you here because you are mostly right. The Ogre magic phase is all about the bluff - casting order is essential. You can throw one dice at all the Gut Magic spells in the game until they are successfully cast or fail (or you run out of dice). If I cast a spell with one dice and you dispel it, guess what I am casting it again on one dice. It is only when the spell is successfully cast (i.e. not dispelled or scrolled) that the casting cost goes up for the next Butcher.

Look, I am not saying that any Ogre list can compete with a heavy magic list but if you want to run Gut Magic and have it be in any way successful then Skrag is the way to go.

3) I realize how the OK magic works. It's woefully underpowered and always has been. Wasn't well thought out TBH. I can usually get some gut magic off with my OK list with just 2 butchers. Often as not, it's all about rolling a 3 and the other guy rolling a 2...which is a sad place to be for any magic user.

There are certainly flaws to be found in Gut Magic but to say it is "woefully underpowered" is a bit extreme. Underpowered compared to what - High Magic? Dark Magic? Chaos Magic? Gut Magic seems more in line with O&G magic and even that has its moments. Anyway, the point of my comment wasn't to talk about how Gut Magic fails but to praise Skrag for what he brings to the OK Magic Phase. Again - if you are planning on going "heavy" with Gut Magic you can't go wrong with Skrag and 2 or 3 Butchers. Short of taking a DoW caster it is the best you can get as an Ogre general. It seems a Gut Magic tactica would be worthwhile for new OK players though, perhaps I will write one sometime soon.

Bait and flee is the standard Ogre way of dealing with fast units - often using Leadbelchers for this very tactic. Personally I don't like them as I tend to do more damage to myself then my target. I don't like Gorgers that much either but they get much better when you can take more than 2 in a list. If you are shooting at 75 points with your guns or warmachine that is just another turn I can spend getting the charge on your units or setting up a flank charge.

4) Gorgers don't deny flanks or give you a flank bonus, so I ignore them and let them get on my flank and rear. Adds to the combat resolution for my side when I put wounds on your gorger. All they have going for them is T5. While 'scary' against say a block of Empire troops--I don't think that's a good example of why gorgers are good since empire troops are so shitty. Try it against Demons, CW, or Elves (either one). You'll get punched in the balls real quick.

Not in the balls!!

Who said anything about flank charging with my Gorger? "Setting up a flank charge" here was in reference to Ogre units. I do sometimes charge my Gorgers into crappy troop blocks who can't hurt them (mmm Marauders taste like chicken). Pretty much a guaranteed 2 turn tar pit against most troops with the exception of truly elite forces. Again, it is about slowing down the enemy advance, re-redirecting, and misdirection. The kill is a secondary benefit (although Killing Blow always helps scare away the lone characters mucking about), the versatility and tactics options Gorgers allow is what makes them a decent choice.

Agreed - Skrag does not charge Knights unless they have been baited for him to be in a position to. And to say Knights don't give a crap about Maneaters is a little ridiculous. Decent WS, high T and S, 4-5 attacks each with Stubborn and ItP?! Of course a Knight wants to avoid that (or at least get the charge). Throw in a Bruiser with BSB or other magic weapon and you have one nasty combat block. I've obliterated many units of Chaos Knights, Blood Knights, Black Knights, etc ... with ME.

5) If you are charging knights with maneaters, then sure you might win. Didn't you already win the game though, because you ARE charging slow ass shit into fast shit? Knights should always charge you in power checkers. Failure to do so when Ogres cannot stop it in any way, well...that's your opponents failing at the basics imo.

Right. Well I don't want to fall back on the "your opponent sucks" argument so let's talk real strategy here. Everything (aside from Gnoblars and Yhetees) in the Ogre army has M6. That puts Ogres at a disadvantage to every army who has access to Cav. Do you expect Ogres to always get charged by these units with higher Movement? How do you deal with them? In your 2,250 list you have many units of Leadbelchers. I assume you use these to deal with Cav based on your previous comments regarding Skrag/my list.

The way I deal with Cav is bait. Put units out there, make a tasty target, flee with units they aren't expecting and get the counter-charge (hopefully with Flank support). Sometimes I do rely on bad charge declarations - it is an annoying little dance in the middle of the board as one side waits for the other to make a mistake and get charged. This is the only way I know how to win with Ogres. If you have some other ideas to share I would love to hear them!

Large blast template with Killing Blow doesn't scare you? The must charge (I call it "crappy frenzy") issue is a problem yes, but the Scraplauncher can hold it's own in most combats (assuming there isn't a S7 attack in the mix). Flyers and Fast Cav can give it a hard time but there is nothing like killing an entire unit of Empire troops or Warriors of Chaos with a Scraplauncher. Good times ...

6) Nope, not really. Gotta hit me first, assuming I don't park a skirmishing unit in your LOS and in charge range of you (14") and make you unable to fire. Yeah, I don't do that all the time. ;)

Fair enough. It is a decent tactic, I use it all the time with the Trappers you seem to think are a waste. Very unlikely a unit of Skirmishers are going to hold up to the charge of the Rhinox. If they flee I migth have more problems but I might also just catch them and eliminate the threat.

The only real worry for me and my Scraplauncher is S7 warmachines or spells. If I only get one or two shots with it that's fine. My guesses are usually spot on (if only my scatter die would stop coming up 8 and 10) and it only takes one to get the job done. I don't expect you change your tune until you see one or two Scraplaunchers in action - I know I didn't!

Trappers Scout and start in cover (typically a forest). They don't get shot on Turn 1 but they might pop out and blast a unit of Fast Cav to death with 16 shots.

7) Except against the competitive armies, you DO get shot--by magic. There is lots of magic that requires no line of sight, and virtually all armies bring it. I don't hold much weight in trappers firing on fast cav (move and multiple shot? assuming I'm dumb enough to be in range of your unit--which is another basics failure btw) and killing them.

Okay, we seem to be talking in circles now. So you don't care about my Trappers but you are going to waste an AoE spell on them? Okay, great! See my first point about Trappers (and Gnoblars in general) - I don't care if you are shooting them with guns, bows, magic, dinosaurs, whatever. If they are being shot instead of my 35+ points each Ogres they are doing their job!

Same with your movement. If you are changing your deployment or move to avoid my Trappers, well to steal a line from you "another basics failure btw". Trappers have Multiple Thrown Weapons meaning they can move and shoot without penalty (for 9-10 shots needing 4's) or multi-shot (for 18-20 shots needing 5's). Both wound on 5's and 6's mostly. Again, until you have seen a unit of Trappers wipe out a unit of Fast Cav or take off a Knight or two you can't appreciate what I am saying. It happens. I do it almost every game I play with Ogres.

I think for the most part we agree on things, especially trying to make a "competitive" list for Ogres. But I love my fatties (my first army and lucky for me I don't really give a crap about winning. If I want to win I just play my Vampire Counts. :D

Besides where is the challenge or fun in playing one of the "broken" and "competitive" lists? Seems boring to me...

I don't know about not being fun, for many players Fantasy isn't 'fun' period. I enjoy my goblin army very much. They are much maligned but I've done well with them.

While my comment was made in jest, it looks like I stirred up the bee's nest on this - I will get back to this thought in my next post.

I have yet to win a game against Daemons with Ogres.

I have yet to lose a game against Vampire Counts or Elves but WoC are about 60/40 for me at the moment.

8) I've beaten Demons but tbh the majority of demon players locally suck at the game so it means nothing. No idea how you are beating good Elf lists, Ogres are totally outclassed. What, ya gonna charge them? lol Is that before or after you get fried by Teclis? Or a Supreme Sorceress? ;) WoC make me giggle but sadly they have the WS, S, and saves to beat ogre face. If they run them like Dwarfs, it's a serious bitch for OK. I'll try to incorporate more Fantasy. A lot of the readers don't seem to like it lol.

Ogres are outclassed against most armies though, doesn't mean you can't beat them with enough practice and patience! To be fair I have only played 4 or maybe 5 HE players. They gave me a hard time, no doubt about that, but most anything T3 makes me happy in CC. Daemons are another story altogether...

I think you need more Fantasy tactics on your site. Take a break from all the 40k list bashing to explore the wonderful (and broken) world of Fantasy lists! And since when have you tried to do things that your readers liked?! Heheh...

Note: Since Stelek's initial post there have been a few additional comments made that I will respond to in my next post. To be continued...

Battle Reporter - Inviting New Members!

I frequent many different WHFB related news sites and forums (probably too many if I am honest) but one site in particular has caught my eye as of late - Battle Reporter (aka Warhammer Fantasy Battle Tabletop Gaming but I think Battle Reporter sounds cooler) .

In addition to having a fairly unique and interesting site, Battle Reporter also has a WHFB-centric forum. I think Sigmar (owner/founder of Battle Reporter) explains it best with the following comments:

Our members are amongst the best Warhammer Fantasy Bloggers you'll find online. We have new players to experienced veterans from all corners of the globe. Everyone is welcome. We have just one rule... be friendly.

We have expert painters and gamers who will happily share their ideas with you. Get involved and improve your game, your painting and your enjoyment of Games Workshop products.

Get your miniatures on our forum slideshow, give us your own tips, show us your army lists, share your battle reports and any other gaming projects you want to publicise. You can win karma, respect and rank just by being yourself !

We cover:

General Warhammer discussion

All Warhammer Fantasy Armies

Warhammer Rules Questions & Answers

Painting Competitions

Interactive Fantasy Roleplay games

Konrad's army builder project

Sigmar's Nautican Army list project

Miniatures trading

Wargame Clubs and a thread for meets

General chit-chat about anything on your mind

We are mainly a Fantasy Battle forum but we also cover 40k and have also recently added Battlefleet Gothic, Bloodbowl, Mordheim and Lord of the Rings forums.

So, what's the catch? There is none, we're just enjoying ourselves!

So there you have it! As long as you aren't a jerk, stop on over and check out the site and the forum. I have been made the Moderator for the Ogre Kingdoms sub-forum if it is OK-centric posts you are looking for. Don't let that stop you from giving it a go, I'll try and keep my other ramblings relagated to this site.

Yes The Truth Hurts Skrag the Slaughterer - Part 2.

The continuation of YTTHStS as seen in this post on Yes The Truth Hurts. Stelek's reply to my defense of Skrag the Slaughterer (and perhaps the OK army in general?) is in that article but I have included it as quotes in my own response below.

Hey Stelek,

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my Ogre ramblings. I tried posting my comments on the YTTH site again but that Js-kit stuff won't have anything to do with me (not my blog, blogger id, google id, Js-kit id). Anyway, aside from that I had some comments on your response. I probably could have made a few of my points clearer the first time around, I will try to be clearer this time around.

1) Gnoblar trappers are easy to remove. Magic missiles sends them packing. Being unable to charge until the trappers move out of the way is called telegraphing your moves. I know it's coming, and it's easy enough to counter. So I don't see the point of trying to hide him when you really can't.

I don't use the Trappers to literally screen Skrag (wouldn't do much good against Warmachines and shooters on hills) but I do use them in forests or other terrain that I want to use to screen him. That way they can march block or otherwise harass the fast movers and hard hitters my opponent points his way.

Don't underestimate a Gnoblar! The trappers have never failed to make their points back for me and they have many uses (skirmish screen, march blocking, sharp stuffing large targets or lone characters, shooting bait, frenzy bait, hatred bait, etc). As long as you don't depend on them to do something they will usually surprise you - just never count on a Gnoblar!

2) I mean per the answers GW has given on the OK book, you cannot hide Skrag in a unit of Ogres. That means you can pick him out and kill him. That's why he sucks, you know. He's great against armies that can't shoot or magic him to death, but then--those are armies you have a solid chance against because those armies suck, right?

Ah, I see what you meant. I don't usually put him in a unit so I can use his higher US to my advantage by breaking ranks on a flank or rear charge.

3) Against competitive armies with a heavy magic bent, you can have two Skrags and you won't be casting shit. You let the Ogre player get off anything but regen (unless you have fire for that unit, then nevermind) or stubborn (especially if you are about to hit them with a big beater unit); I don't know about you but having 10 PD does not impress. You still need a minimum score to cast the first one, then a higher score to cast the second. If I let you cast regen on a shitty unit, then YOU start burning PD to try and cast it (you can NOT try to cast a spell you cannot actually cast because a single PD won't power it) since it's at a higher level. At which point, I stop it. I don't care about the other 4 spells, if you think they are 'good' then you need to play say Dark Elf, High Elf, or Demonic magic. 6 or 7 great spells, not shitty filler content like the OK have.

I'm not going to disagree with you here because you are mostly right. The Ogre magic phase is all about the bluff - casting order is essential. You can throw one dice at all the Gut Magic spells in the game until they are successfully cast or fail (or you run out of dice). If I cast a spell with one dice and you dispel it, guess what I am casting it again on one dice. It is only when the spell is successfully cast (i.e. not dispelled or scrolled) that the casting cost goes up for the next Butcher.

Look, I am not saying that any Ogre list can compete with a heavy magic list but if you want to run Gut Magic and have it be in any way successful then Skrag is the way to go.

4) Leadbelchers are your only answer to many fast units, and your only way to whittle strong units down. If you are relying on gut magic or close combat to kill strong enemy units, you play against really really bad fantasy players. Gorgers are random, and don't scare experienced players. No matter how many you have. I will gladly accept you having a 300 point deficit on turn 1, kill Skrag, and deal with the gorgers when they show up. It's not hard to push them to the edges of the game and ignore them the entire game. Add in fast cav or shooty skirmishers, and gorgers are silly bad.

Bait and flee is the standard Ogre way of dealing with fast units - often using Leadbelchers for this very tactic. Personally I don't like them as I tend to do more damage to myself then my target. I don't like Gorgers that much either but they get much better when you can take more than 2 in a list. If you are shooting at 75 points with your guns or warmachine that is just another turn I can spend getting the charge on your units or setting up a flank charge.

5) You missed the point. Skrag doesn't charge Knights. The Knights charge Skrag. Skrag dies, and the rest of the Ogres get run down. If you are charging Skrag into Knights, you are once again playing really really bad Fantasy players. Knights don't give a crap about your maneaters. I know from experience. The good ones suffer less than 2 wounds from each Maneaters, assuming the Maneaters don't just get beat to death on the charge (because for your 86 or 90 points on ONE maneater, other people get 3-4 knights. just no contest). With a -4 modifier, you get a knight a turn. If they know what they are doing, they kill Skrag on the charge OR just wipe your Maneaters out and run him down when he flees from combat. Either way, your Lord is dead to a unit that costs way way less than you do.

Agreed - Skrag does not charge Knights unless they have been baited for him to be in a position to. And to say Knights don't give a crap about Maneaters is a little ridiculous. Decent WS, high T and S, 4-5 attacks each with Stubborn and ItP?! Of course a Knight wants to avoid that (or at least get the charge). Throw in a Bruiser with BSB or other magic weapon and you have one nasty combat block. I've obliterated many units of Chaos Knights, Blood Knights, Black Knights, etc ... with ME.

6) A scraplauncher has the same 'must charge' issues, which is fun to take advantage of. It's also not scary.

Large blast template with Killing Blow doesn't scare you? The must charge (I call it "crappy frenzy") issue is a problem yes, but the Scraplauncher can hold it's own in most combats (assuming there isn't a S7 attack in the mix). Flyers and Fast Cav can give it a hard time but there is nothing like killing an entire unit of Empire troops or Warriors of Chaos with a Scraplauncher. Good times ...

7) 8 trappers? That survives 1 turn? Then Skrag gets shot to pieces? Come on.

Trappers Scout and start in cover (typically a forest). They don't get shot on Turn 1 but they might pop out and blast a unit of Fast Cav to death with 16 shots.

I think we'll just have to disagree on Skrag. Trying to make a competitive army out of OK is ultimately a futile exercise.

I think for the most part we agree on things, especially trying to make a "competitive" list for Ogres. But I love my fatties (my first army and lucky for me I don't really give a crap about winning. If I want to win I just play my Vampire Counts. :D

Besides where is the challenge or fun in playing one of the "broken" and "competitive" lists? Seems boring to me ...

Dark Elves, High Elves, Vampire Counts, Chaos, and Demons are just so far above it it's not funny.

Note I mentioned VC and Chaos Warriors...both armies that are NOT in the same class as the pointy ears or demons, not by a long shot. If they can manhandle you...man, that's not good.

I have yet to win a game against Daemons with Ogres.

I have yet to lose a game against Vampire Counts or Elves but WoC are about 60/40 for me at the moment.

Fantasy debates are fun!

I agree! Would love to see more Fantasy content on YTTH. I don't think the tactics in WHFB are as cut and dry as they are in 40k - many different ways you can go and still find some success.

So my thoughts in summary - Ogres are not super-competitive (but you can make them work if you try hard). If you want to have any real success with Gut Magic Skrag is a good option (10-12 PD is the most you are going to get with OK at sub-3k). Don't trust a Gnoblar but don't be shocked when they kill the crap out of your opponent's expensive units.

I think that about covers it. Next time around perhaps I will comment on the OK list you have posted in your lists. Interested to hear why you made certain choices.

Keep up the good work.

Randroid aka Randall

Still awaiting a second response - in the meantime you can read Stelek's 2,250 Ogre Kingdoms list here. I see some favorite and not so favorite things in this list. Hell, it might be worth trying ! At least that way I can say for sure I don't like it.

Chaos In The Old World rules available for download!

What hope can there be for the mortal world?
— Liber Malefic

Saw this on The Hogs of War today - The full rules for the upcoming Warhammer Fantasy boardgame "Chaos In The Old World" are now available for download from the Fantasy Flight Games Support page.

As described on the FFG game page:
Chaos in the Old World is a game of conquest, pitting the four Ruinous Powers of Chaos against each other for control of the Old World. Players must out summon, out play, and outwit theirs rivals to ensure their domination of the lands for ages to come.

Most exciting! I have only had a few moments to look them over but I have to say I am really looking forward to this game's release. Playing as one of the four major Chaos Gods has to be fun right? If you need more visual aid be sure to check out this trailer of the game as well. I love the graphic designer's sweet Dr. Who scarf/poncho outfit and his dedication to stretched human skin.

I haven't seen a release date for the game yet but it is being demo'd at GenCon this month so hopefully it will be out sometime in the next few months. CHAOS!!

Yes The Truth Hurts Skrag the Slaughterer - Part 1.

Some of you may be familiar with the 40k-centric Warhammer Tactics blog Yes The Truth Hurts. It is run by 'Stelek' and for the most part consists of army list critiques and general commentary on the state of competitive gaming in GW systems. I read the blog once or twice a week - mostly as an exercise in restraint as I watch Stelek belittle and mock most everything in the "hobby", but also to learn a thing or two in the process.

Long story short, Stelek is a very aggressive and outspoken guy who will tell you exactly what he thinks and why he thinks you are "wrong" about what you think. I find this refreshing in a sea of "me too" and "yes man" style blogs that basically just rehash/regurgitate the latest news coming out of Games Workshop or other fansites. Even if I don't agree with his methods (or opinions for that matter) I appreciate the existence of Stelek's blog and the message.

So imagine my surprise when reading this recent post to another OK player regarding Skrag the Slaughterer on the site (reposted here without permission - sorry Stelek, hope you don't mind):

Endre Enyedy wrote:
Hello,

I know you don't think much of the Ogre Kingdoms, what with them being a very subpar army at the moment. However, the last time you hammered out a list a good portion of its core strategy (the Rune Maw banner) was shot down, so I was wondering how you would adjust the list to compensate, and how you'd grow it to 2250.

Also, what do you think of Skragg the Slaughterer? Word has it that the Skragg list is actually competitive at the tournament level, so I was wondering if you agreed and if so, what kind of list would you design around him?

Thanks,
Endre

Reply:

Well to make the Rune Maw banner work, you just add a unit of Gnoblars and redirect into them. It's not that big a deal really. lol

Skrag has a few weaknesses that you should be made aware of before you start thinking he's competitive.

1) Frenzy. You can pull him out of his unit with it (tricky, but doable).

2) He's targetable by any shooting or magic as he is not on an Ogre base.

3) While having more power dice is nice, Ogres only have a few useful spells so if you get them off successfully (which is more likely) it's then more difficult to get them off with Butchers. As a result, you tend to not bring extra Butchers along...and when Skrag falls to #1 or #2, all of your gut magic goes away.

4) Having a zillion gorgers is cute, but ultimately self-defeating as every pair of them you take is one less leadbelcher unit you can bring along. Just as you can defend against outflankers in 40K, you can do the same in Fantasy.

5) Knights love Skrag. Especially 1+ save Knights. You charge him and hit him with Chosen Chaos Knights, Blood Knights, or Grail Knights. Watch how fast he poofs.

So it isn't that he's competitive, it's that he's an entirely different build of Ogre Kingdoms. Once at a tournament he might work, but against your regular opponent's you are going to get your face smashed in once they figure out 'Kill The Big One, Win'.

I tried the list and it just doesn't work, sadly. Sorry.

To say I was dismayed at this response would be putting it lightly. Here was a poor OK playing soul looking for a little bit of guidance and this summary response is what he got? Not up to the usual level I would expect, but then again this is a WHFB article on a mostly 40k site. I felt it was important for a regular OK player, and newly-minted Skrag enthusiast, to "set the record straight" on Skrag and the OK army list. The following is my response.

Hey Stelek,

Been reading the site for awhile, mostly just spectating as I play WHFB and most of your content is 40k.

Saw the post yesterday about Skrag and thought I would chime in with my own first hand experience.

One of the biggest problems for the OK list in the current WHFB environment is Magic. It seems obvious that Gut Magic is central to making Ogre a true threat against most armies but the relatively low power level of the Butchers makes this quite difficult when everyone is tooling up to face down magic heavy VC/DE/DoC/WoC lists. The old "standard" used to be Tyrant + 3 Butchers but this has fallen by the wayside as Butchers simply can't keep up with a max of 8 PD (and that is with spending a minimum of 390 points and three character slots to make that happen).

Anyway, my long rambling point - Skrag makes the OK magic-heavy list easier and better to do. Taking Skrag is the only way to get a Slaughtermaster Lvl 4 caster into a sub-3k OK army list. Additionally it gives you two for one Special choice Gorgers which are great for negating one of the Ogres other major weaknesses - shooting.

Having played Ogres for the past year (only in tourneys for the past 6 months or so) I have to say I have been really happy with Skrag as my army general. He isn't the best at everything but I think he is well worth it for anyone who wants to actually make their Gut Magic useful in a game.

(posted my Skrag list here for him to pick on - see earlier Skrag posts if you are interested in the contents, this is getting too long already!)

Regarding your comments -

1) Frenzy. You can pull him out of his unit with it (tricky, but doable).

True. Anything with Frenzy is a liability. Luckily Skrag benefits from killing enemy models in CC and being in CC keeps him safe(r) from shooting and magic. Point him and the nearest "squishy" target and kill, kill, kill! I like to screen my Skrag with Gnoblar Trappers, using them to deal with and Fast Cav setting up to lure Skrag away from the fight.

2) He's targetable by any shooting or magic as he is not on an Ogre base.

Not sure what you mean by this? The OK book is a 6th edition book that makes mention of the older 6th edition shooting rules under the army wide rules section. All Ogres are targetable by magic and shooting - it is one of their biggest weaknesses!

3) While having more power dice is nice, Ogres only have a few useful
spells so if you get them off successfully (which is more likely) it's
then more difficult to get them off with Butchers. As a result, you
tend to not bring extra Butchers along...and when Skrag falls to #1 or
#2, all of your gut magic goes away.

Gut Magic is primarily a defensive magic meaning you need to have units close to your Butcher to make use of their abilities. Since Butchers can only throw 2 dice at any one Gut Magic spell I usually start my magic phase with their casting and leave Skrag for last as he can throw 3 dice at a spell.

Don't underestimate spells like Bonespitter which I have used to destroy many "invincible" feeling units of Knights (S2 no armor save, gotta roll 5+ and 6+ some time!). Braingobbler can be really great when used in conjunction with Skullmantle for the -1 Ld, and healing wounds on your Butchers is always useful.

I also don't understand the comment about bringing less Butchers. Really the only reason (aside from the Gorgers) to bring Skrag is if you want to go magic heavy - meaning you absolutely want to bring more Butchers to increase your chances of actually getting anything off! Skrag + 2 Butchers is 10 PD, nothing to scoff at especially when throwing 1 dice at each spell to draw DD out of your opponent and using the bound spell from a Bangstick to whittle away at your opponent's softer units.

4) Having a zillion gorgers is cute, but ultimately self-defeating as
every pair of them you take is one less leadbelcher unit you can bring
along. Just as you can defend against outflankers in 40K, you can do
the same in Fantasy.

Well we will have to agree to disagree on this point as I find Leadbelchers to be hands down one of the worst units in the OK book. Their threat of damage is all they have and any skilled WHFB general will see right through that, either feeding them crap units or blasting them off the board with shooting/magic.

You don't need to max out on Gorgers to make Skrag's abilities worthwhile - I find that 4 Gorgers is plenty to get the job done. Sure my opponent can be thinking about ways of dealing with them from the start of deployment but ever gun or unit not facing towards my battle line or otherwise distracted is another unit of buffed up Ogres I can ram down their throat. Nothing beats a surprise Killing Blow on a souped up Lord from a ravenous, shit clawed monstrosity that came on the board Turn 2.

5) Knights love Skrag. Especially 1+ save Knights. You charge him and
hit him with Chosen Chaos Knights, Blood Knights, or Grail Knights.
Watch how fast he poofs.

And? If you are throwing Skrag at a unit of Knights without some kind of backup you shouldn't be playing him to begin with. Knights are a huge problem for all Ogres, Lords and Core alike. That's why I run my Maneaters with GW - Knights love getting hit with S7. Turns their "quaint" armor save to jelly. Don't forget Skrag also causes Terror which keeps some fast movers from hitting him (not the ones you listed but some).

Anyway, just wanted to chime in. Tried to leave this as a comment on the site but your comment system hates me.

Keep up the good work, always good to see the occasional Fantasy post (even if I don't agree with you on most of them)!

Best,

Randroid

So there you have it. Reading over this for the third time I can see a few holes/leaps in my logic, but I will get into that more in the second installment of YTTHStS. In the meantime, what do you fantasy players think? Has Stelek convinced you that Skrag is not worth it?